As you may have heard, a judge in New York cleared police officers in the shooting death of a man. Please read THIS story BEFORE you comment as it is a little complicated.
25
Apr
08
As you may have heard, a judge in New York cleared police officers in the shooting death of a man. Please read THIS story BEFORE you comment as it is a little complicated.
A 36-year-old man dies in W. Memphis police custody. A 12-year-old kid gets murdered by a W. Memphis Police “officer”. A 19-year-old man gets gunned down by Memphis police. A man just having his batchelor’s party gets gunned down by NYC police. The resemblance? Most of the cops were white, and all of the victims were black. Sounds like police departments across the country have declared open season on blacks, and the “lack of” justice system will acquit them everytime. This is not good.
If a police officer says “STOP!!!” or “DROP THE WEAPON!!!” or “GET ON THE GROUND”, You need to do what he or she says without question or hesitation. While it may be a conveinient excuse to play the race card the actual reasons that Deaunta Farrow, Dewayne Chatt and the guys in New York are dead is not because they were black or because police officers are out to gun down all black people, It is because they chose to challange the police. Any police officer put in any of those situations would have done the same thing whether the person thretening their lives were white or black….
If a police officer says ‘STOP!!!’ or ‘DROP THE WEAPON!!!’ or ‘GET ON THE GROUND’, You need to do what he or she says without question or hesitation.
Being as this incident took place 3 blocks from my home (in NYC) I’ll say this. When a plainclothes person yells any of the above how do you know they are police?
You would need to know and understand the history of policing in Queens to gain the best insight to the matter, but let’s say that the “friendly officer” is not the picture presented by many police.
Don’t get me wrong, I have seen some policemen commit amazing acts of courage and self sacrifice, but I have also seen some (a small number to be fair) commit amazing acts of crime and violence. In a stop, how do you know which one you are getting?
For information, the 103rd Precinct is the same precinct where Officer Ed Byrne got shot (2 blocks from my house by the way).
Ex-Pat
To George:
Here’s some better background info links:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/nyregion/24precinct.html?pagewanted=print
http://www.counterpunch.org/rodriguez12072006.html
If a police officer says ‘STOP!!!’ or ‘DROP THE WEAPON!!!’ or ‘GET ON THE GROUND’, You need to do what he or she says without question or hesitation.
Being as this incident took place 3 blocks from my home (in NYC) I’ll say this. When a plainclothes person yells any of the above how do you know they are police?
You would need to know and understand the history of policing in Queens to gain the best insight to the matter, but let’s say that the “friendly officer” is not the picture presented by many police.
Don’t get me wrong, I have seen some policemen commit amazing acts of courage and self sacrifice, but I have also seen some (a small number to be fair) commit amazing acts of crime and violence. In a stop, how do you know which one you are getting?
For information, the 103rd Precinct is the same precinct where Officer Ed Byrne got shot (2 blocks from my house by the way).
Ex-Pat
To George:
I have some better background info links if you want
If I am correct on the issue. Police tried to stop an intoxicated man outside a stripjoint. He then proceeded to attempt to drive away after being told to stop. In the process almost hitting one of the officers and backing into a police car. In my opinion the police had ever right to do what was necessary to stop this guy. If I have the details correct I have no sympathy for the criminal behind the wheel of the car. In this case the police officers were the victoms. Hear me out. Had the police not stopped this guy. He would have left at a high rate of speed trying to flee from the police. He had already come close to running over an officer and hitting a car. What makes you think that he would have cared anymore about hitting whatever was in his path. An innocent child or pedestrian or caused a another collision and causing alot more harm. I feel for the officers that had to go through this. They didnt come to work this day I assure you thinking. “Today I am going to kill someone” It is the last thing an officer wants to do. This is my opinion on this issue providing I have the facts right.
Shannon street has NOTHING to do with this incident. NONE whatsoever! Why do you even have to bring it up?
Then it is relegated to RACE again, see above first comment.
Channel 3….Rant……George……shame on ALL of you. I am sorry for having been one who comes here and post. The posts are deleted on an apparent who’s popular basis. By that I mean many posts are deleted while others are left in tact with accusations of racism and many other comments like, bigots, racists etc.
WHY? I don’t need an email explanation. I would like one here.
In summation, I believe as a black man that the cops are innocent for once. A few minutes ago I saw a newscast about the aftermath of the trial that involved a series of protests, when I just got pissed. There’s always a protests when a cop gets acquitted and regardless of the justification, where are the protests when a black man refuse to take care of his kids?
Why don’t we protest when another underage black girl becomes pregnant?
Where are the protests when two young black boys kill each other?
Why don’t we protest when another black child drops out of high school?
Where are the protests when young black kids who are going to college, get gunned downed for no reason?
How can we demand justice from others when we can’t even demand justice from ourselves?
APPLAUSE arises. That was a mouth full and powerful.
Thanks for your comment. Wondered the same thing myself.
Maybe even protest when dads and moms aren’t there teaching kids and the girl tries to sell herself on the streets. I was divorced when my children were very young. I still taught them right from wrong, so did their mom.
I must give some my opinion on this as well. It is my opinion that if I have the story straight that the police did what was necessary to stop the aggression. Here we have an indivual who had been drinking heavily. The officers involved asked him, told him to stop and he refused. He almost hit an officer and he succeeded in backing into a car. My question to all who disagree with me would be who would he have hit had the police not done what they did. If he was so far gone that he almost hit an officer and backed into a police car what makes anyone think he would care about hitting another car, person, or a child. The answer is during the moment he wouldnt. I agree with the verdict and hope the victoms ( the officers ) can go onto to do more to make their city safe. I have read only a few articles on this so my facts “Could” be off however if they are not then the officers did the right thing. Too many people think that when a Police Officer shows up and say to Cease and Submit that this statement means game on. It was a bad situation yes but it could have been worse.
I wrote that out of anger over the ensuing protests. With respect to those who were genuinely screwed over (Amadou Diallo), it seems that some can’t tell a genuine accident from racism at its most reckless. It’s pretty easy to understand how the situation arose if one just viewed evidence from both sides in a pragmatic way, as opposed to jumping to judgment.
I will never say that there aren’t officers that have a negative predisposition towards minorities, however I refuse to believe that these men are those officers.
Note, this case was not and is not about race, it’s about police use of force. The quotes are from Wikipedia if you want to reference them yourself.
“How can we demand justice from others when we can’t even demand justice from ourselves?”
One officer shot 31 times! One clip and two reloads.
“the police did what was necessary to stop the aggression.”
Again, over 50 shots? We’re talking a very small area here, less than 10-20 feet square at probably the max distance.
“Here we have an indivual who had been drinking heavily. The officers involved asked him, told him to stop and he refused.”
He was approached by undercover detectives, who may or may not have identified themselves.
“According to the police, there is no ballistic evidence indicating that any weapon, other than those of the officers’, was fired at the scene.”
So what were they shooting at that made them discharge over 50 shots? A car?
“According to Police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly, veteran officer Michael Oliver emptied two full magazines, firing 31 shots from a 9mm handgun and pausing to reload at least once.[11] Some shots hit nearby homes and a train station. Five of the seven officers investigating the club were involved in the shooting. Detective Paul Headley fired one round, Officer Michael Carey fired three, Officer Marc Cooper fired four, Officer Gescard Isnora fired eleven, and Officer Michael Oliver fired thirty one times”
“My question to all who disagree with me would be who would he have hit had the police not done what they did.”
Probably no one, it’s an semi-commercial area, little to no foot traffic one that part of the street at that time of night. As described the bullets had a ways to travel to hit a house, maybe 50 ft or more. In all fairness the area is surrounded by stores and some houses though.
“It was a bad situation yes but it could have been worse.”
With over 50 rounds expended the only thing worse would have been a full on SWAT shootout. Again though, the victims did not have any weapons so maybe you could elaborate on how it could have gotten worse in your opinion.
Ex-Pat
Why can’t these incidents be taken at the police department’s investigation report and with common sense and fairness, instead of making it a racism thing?
If an officer tells you to stop, put down the weapon, freeze, get out of the car, lay down etc. If you have run or evaded and he tells you this with a weapon drawn, why try to be dfiant then scream racism????? I have not figured this out.
I was a young man and an officer pulled me over for speeding. Simple stop huh? Well, I was not speeding. I was on my way to do a street race and was behaving so as not to draw attention. My opponent chose to drive like an idiot and guess what, he drew attention. We both were stopped. I told the officer I was not speeding and he took his night stick out and patted his hand repeatedly while telling me, “if I wanted to argue I could go to the back of the car and he didn’t think I’d make it there”. I did make it there and took my ticket as a man. The next Monday morning my friend who was riding with me and myself went down to internal affiars and filed a complaint. They took our statements in seperate rooms and later the officer was fired. Seems there was a pattern to his actions.
Wh not just shut up and then later file a complaint like I did and actually live to see another day rathen than be macho, or stupid I should say?
Why can’t these incidents be taken at the police department’s investigation report and with common sense and fairness, instead of making it a racism thing?
The answer is quite simple … and, is substantiated by countless episodes … from Rodney King, to this Bell mess.
It’s an attempt to mask, and excuse, rampant bad behavior by blacks. You see, the bad black behavior that always precedes the police reaction tends to be diminished, and “excused”.
The bottom line is: In 99.9% of these cases, if the “victim” had followed police instructions, there would have been no problem. There are bad cops out there … but, very few & far between. The racial rabble rousers would like you to believe they are “valiant warriors” in the ongoing struggle between a fine upstanding black community and the racist army of police.
HOGWASH!
In the vast majority of cases, these people put themselves in a position to be stopped by law enforcement, and then refuse to follow orders. Then, the real problem begins.
I’m so sick of this “racist cop” nonsense, I could spit nails. BTW, I hardly think I’m alone.
I know good and well that black people aren’t the only ones who are being killed by police in America. What is happening is that when a black person is killed, it seems to get ALL of the media coverage.
In this case, at least a couple of the officers were black, so the shooting can’t be blamed on racism. More than likely, it had something to do with Sean Bell acting a fool (in the first place) and not following the orders of the law enforcement officials….Deauntae Farrow (kept pointing his gun at the police when told to drop it and get on the ground), Timothy Jones (running away from police while shooting at them), Dewayne Chatt (running away when told to get on the ground).
It is no secret that many people hate the police and this attitude is apparent in their behavior, attitude, and actions in their dealings with the police. I just wish that some people would admit that this type of behavior is what ignites the situation and many times results is their demise. It has nothing to do with skin color (but the media makes you think it does because of all of the attention it gives to it)
There were a lot of shots fired in this case and on the face of it, it sounds excessive. I don’t know all of the evidence or hear all of the testimony so I can’t say if this death is justified. However, the judge did and he thought so.
“You would need to know and understand the history of policing in Queens to gain the best insight to the matter, but let’s say that the “friendly officer” is not the picture presented by many police.”
Ex-pat, the history in Queens is the same as others across America. We know there are racist police out there. You don’t even need to convince us, we know. But I don’t believe it is rampant as some would have us believe. I know there are a lot of people out there who just don’t like anyone telling them what to do or not do. The fact is we aren’t supposed to physically and verbally challenge law enforcement officers while they’re performing their duties. If you do, then expect to face the consequences, whatever they may be. It’s a pretty simple concept.
“Ex-pat, the history in Queens is the same as others across America. We know there are racist police out there. You don’t even need to convince us, we know. But I don’t believe it is rampant as some would have us believe. I know there are a lot of people out there who just don’t like anyone telling them what to do or not do. The fact is we aren’t supposed to physically and verbally challenge law enforcement officers while they’re performing their duties. If you do, then expect to face the consequences, whatever they may be. It’s a pretty simple concept.”
Tat,
Hate to break it to you, but no, it’s not the same. I repeat, this is not about RACISM, it’s about use of force. This has been mentioned over and over but it seems like many here are so locked into racism as a trigger point that they can’t see or hear any other thing. Race has nothing to do with this case.
This is the difference between the small town acting like a big city that is Memphis and a real big city. At some point you outgrow Black/white issues and just have issues. NYC has the largest police force in the US. These are not just uniformed officers, there are a lot of varieties you see daily from the regular street cop, transit police, bridge and tunnel police, and the various specialized squads covering the city. There is no such thing as a city/county split in NYC.
I take it those who fall on the “law and order” side of the fence have never had a run-in with plainclothes detectives. Well, from experience I can tell you it’s not the same as a uniformed officer driving a cruiser. A totally different experience. They don’t always readily identify themselves (especially if they are undercover), nor do they issue directives like uniformed police. This is not TV.
“I know there are a lot of people out there who just don’t like anyone telling them what to do or not do.”
Perhaps, but this is not the case with Sean Bell. He was approached by plainclothes detectives, not uniformed police, not in a clearly marked cruiser. Plainclothes, unmarked car, at night, who probably did not identify themselves as police. I defy anyone here to tell me they can tell the difference between a plainclothes detective and just someone on the street. From his point of view all he saw was a guy with a gun yelling at him. Note, in NYC handguns can’t be carried without special permits that are few and far between and extremely hard to qualify for.
Read the facts of the article, they are clearly and explicitly stated.
- This is not about someone “acting the fool”, it was his bachelor party, he was getting married the next day.
- This is not about a thug, criminal or criminal behaviour. He was told to stop by someone on a dark street that was in the club with him. How did he know it was a cop?
“The fact is we aren’t supposed to physically and verbally challenge law enforcement officers while they’re performing their duties. If you do, then expect to face the consequences, whatever they may be. It’s a pretty simple concept.”
My friend then I highly suggest you read and understand your rights as a citizen. Your life may depend on it.
Ex-Pat
Tat,
Hate to break it to you, but no, it’s not the same. I repeat, this is not about RACISM, it’s about use of force. This has been mentioned over and over but it seems like many here are so locked into racism as a trigger point that they can’t see or hear any other thing. Race has nothing to do with this case.
This is the difference between the small town acting like a big city that is Memphis and a real big city. At some point you outgrow Black/white issues and just have issues.
=====================
HUH???
What is Sharpton doing?
Bottom line he acted a fool, and when asked to stop he choose to jump in a car with what was advised a gun in his pocket and rammed a vehicle with someone inside…He called there bluff the officers called his…He would still be alive if he had just did what was asked of him…At most he would have been told to leave the area for fighting nothing more…
Its when he choose to play the “im stupid card and I didn’t know you where a officer” that got him killed, stupid with just a little home training and self control all this could have been avoided…
Now on to the officer that fired 50 times, that was a little much, ok ok that was way too much just to detain one person and what are the details on the 50 shots? Where they fired while he was in the car attempting to get away? Or was he out of the car and the officer just put 50 in him from point blank range these are factors that play into the deciding factors about the case and where the liability lies…
1: Undercover agents were at the club when Bell and his friends got into a confrontation with other club goers outside.
2: Bell then jumped into a car with a friend who witnesses say appeared to have a gun in his pocket.
3: An officer claimed that after warning the men to halt, Bell pulled away, bumped him and rammed an unmarked police van that converged on the scene with Oliver at the wheel.
This is why the situation turned out the way it did, and the reason this is not about race for those who did not read the articles and blogs 2 of the 3 officers are black one is Italian it looks like…Understand the case and all the facts people…
When cops go into training they are NOT taught to shoot guns out of peoples hands or shoot someone in the leg, too expect that from a cop means you have been watching too much TV and need to join the REAL WORLD…
mrwhitey:
Yes, I will be called a racist for saying some things. I hope so. Today, “racist” means “one who says what everybody else knows.” It is a badge of intellectual honor and integrity.
Nonetheless, it remains that if I could change any of these conditions, I would. I don’t enjoy seeing people in lousy circumstances.
I just don’t know what to do about it. Neither does anyone else.
“Tat, Hate to break it to you, but no, it’s not the same. I repeat, this is not about RACISM, it’s about use of force.”
Ex-pat, I didn’t think it was but Poster #1 seems to believe it is and I was pointing out to him that he is wrong.
So what is Rabble Rouser Sharpton doing? Trying to make it into a racial issue? Trying to make a quick buck?
“I take it those who fall on the “law and order” side of the fence have never had a run-in with plainclothes detectives.”
You make it sound that there is something wrong with “law and order.”
The overwhelming majority of cops, uniformed or plainclothes, don’t get their kicks hassling law abiding citizens.
People put themselves in suspicious and compromising positions through their own stupidity,or criminal behavior.
The bottom line is; if one follows the officers’ instructions, the confrontation either ends with a peaceful arrest … or, each go their own way.
You know, if I’m as pure as the driven snow, and a cop calls me out about something … I will follow his instructions, verbatim.
Say, why is it almost always black people who are in these situations???
Just shut your big mouths, and do what the officer says.
The overwhelming majority of cops, uniformed or plainclothes, don’t get their kicks ha*s*s*ling law abiding citizens.
People put themselves in suspicious and compromising positions through their own stupidity,or criminal behavior.
The bottom line is; if one follows the officers’ instructions, the confrontation either ends with a peaceful arrest … or, each go their own way.
You know, if I’m as pure as the driven snow, and a cop calls me out about something … I will follow his instructions, verbatim.
Say, why is it almost always black people who are in these situations???
Just shut your big mouths, and do what the officer says.
Amen fly, as you stated if the offending person does what is asked the need for the situation to escalate dies and as you also stated the arrest will take place at which time most bonds cost about 100 bucks and your back at home the same night or the officer gives a verbal warning of the misconduct and each goes his/her own way…Prob solved end of story and no one had to die…
Great post…
The sad truth is there is nothing that can be done to placate the black community as far as the police go. They complain about crime in their neighborhoods and when a black suspect is arrested they complain the police are racist. For example, Last week the West Memphis police pulled over a car and found marijuana in it and arrested the three guys inside for possesion. One of the guys happend to be Deaunta Farrow’s brother and soon there was a mob gathering. They didn’t care if he was a criminal, They just wanted him freed because he was a black criminal. The police aren’t targeting black neighborhoods because they are racist, They target the areas where the criminals are. When I listen to my police scanner(West Memphis), 90% of the calls that officers are dispatched on are to the predominately black neighborhoods which indicates the problem isn’t the cops but rather the residents but the “Poor Me, I’m just a victim of social injustice” attitude and the ranting of Sharpton and Jackson only exacerbate the problem….
The sadder truth is that, with you people, the police are ALWAYS right, regardless of what steps they take to “ensure the peace”—especially if it means trampling on the rights and/or lives of blacks—blacks are ALWAYS more responsible for then incidents than the police will ever be and, when someone calls it what it is—RACISM—you go into typical whining “playing the race card” mode. You people feel that anything the police does is right, regardless of the age or intentions of the victim and, of course, when you offer your pointless “sympathies” and ungodly “prayers” that is supposed to mean something.
Add to that the fact that whites feel as if they have the right or freedom to criticize blacks in all they do, while some ignorant, self-hating “blacks” who suck up to the powers that be love to agree with them. There is a weird pattern here, in that blacks are the only ones that seem to get entangled in these “tragedies”. It’s also weird that every encounter such as this ends with the death of an innocent black person, and some of you aere too stupid to call it what it is. That is really strange…and totally pathetic. There is a such thing as police brutality. But of course, only whites feel that part of the police. Blacks are always wrong, and the police always acted properly, right? I don’t think so. This demonstrated how racist and out of touch with reality whites in Memphis and across this nation really are.
Further proof of this loos of touch with reality is the bigots’ penchant for believing the police do not lie to cover their rear ends. Oh no, that just doesn’t happen. It wasn’t that some bigot who was fired from one police force for using excessive force did the same thing in West Memphis. It wasn’t that some bigot in Memphis shot a man in the back just because he was black. It wasn’t that some bigot and two miscreant black cops went overboard in NYC. And of course, our resident idiot who cherry picks his data and is allegedly an expert on NYC isn’t falsifying and misrepresenting the “facts” again. You people are so pathetic.
>>>YAWWWNN<<<
Mannnnnnn,
Just what I needed, first thing on a Monday morning, … a whining, moaning, delusional “young memphis gentleman” grumbling and making more excuses.
tj:
Race does not factor into this, 2 of the 3 police officers involved are black…Also weather the officer is right or wrong you should NEVER question or get combative with the directive of a officer it only leads to more issues in the end…
Now dont missunderstand what I am saying I KNOW officers are not allways right, and this has been proven time and time again but while the officers are on the scene they see you do something that they deam worthy of asking you to stop or place your hands on your head whatever the case may be…For the time being just do it, you can always get a lawyer and fight it on a civil level or higher if needed but never get defensive to the point that it can be taken as combative…
I was a jail officer for 4 years and let me tell you if I issue a directive say for example get in the holding cell, and you tell me F**K off cop I dont have to listen to you I will either place you in the tank myself regaurdless of what you want or have a few officers do it for me…No citezen has the latitude to question the “Initial” order of the officer just do it, and if there are issues you would like to bring up after then do so…
Doing things this way NO MATTER WHAT THE RACE, will insure that you will not be placed in a spot to either end up dead because you where too stupid to comprehend the word “halt” and according to you just becuase someone is black they somehow have the lattitude to do and say what they want, your living in a fairy tail world…The same rules that apply to me guess what they apply to you as well…
My father is a cop and been so for the last 27years we had a “white” teenager in a store with what appeared to be a toy gun, the clerk called the police they arrive and tell the kid to drop the weapon and get on the group with his palms face up, he did this without hesitation and guess what he was charged but he was alive too…So many things can be avoided if you just use a very small amount of comon sence which seems to be in shortages as of late…
[color=blue][size=5]YAWWNNN[/size][/color]
I was a jail officer for four years…
And, what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? The fact of the matter is, race IS a factor when your handlers (superiors) are white. If this would have been a white guy that got killed, we believe that the case would have had a totally different outcome. That you utilized one example of a white guy getting the other end of the baton doe not and will never invalidate my statement. And, if Fly had a job, maybe he wouldn’t be so bored.
A bit “off topic”, but interesting. BTW, I love Michelle Malkin!
http://michellemalkin.com/2008/04/28/monday-morning-engine-starter-jeremiah-wright-racial-phrenologist/
Here we go again with the “you people” and “bigot” refering to the white comunity as “handlers” like we own someone like a pice of property or a pet…And why do you think “If this would have been a white guy that got killed, we believe that the case would have had a totally different outcome.” what would have been different…And its not “WE” believe its “YOU” believe…As much as you want to think you speak for everyone you sadly do not…
If “I” a white man walk out of a club, start fighting with people outside, cops TELL me to HALT and I jump in a car with a gun in the pocket and bump the officer with the chance to cause some serious bodily harm to them and any who may be around at the time and ram a car which was later advised as a undercover vehcile which had a person inside…Its pretty cut and dry I have placed myself in a VERY bad and dagerous spot as a person…They would have done the same to me that was done to this person…
What is strange is that when a young man points a gun(Toy or otherwise) at a cop and gets killed, The first thought that comes to my mind is the kid must have been stupid while your interpretation is that the cop is a murderer no matter what evidence to the contrary. I’m not saying that there is no such thing as a bad cop, There are always a few rotten apples in a truckload but in the cases of Farrow, Chatt and the New York guys, It’s more than obvious that they were the primary cause of the situation that ended with their deaths. The leadership in the black community could have used these tragedies as an example to young people to cooperate when approached by law enforcement but instead they chose to paint a picture of a vast conspiracy which fuels more confrontational behavior and more potential tragedies. As for whites being out of touch with reality, The problem with your argument is the white community sees all too much of that reality in the news everyday. Gangs, School riots and so on. Where are the marches and protests and black leaders calling for the resignation of the Mayor and the school board? You won’t see them because those gang members and school rioters are just “Poor victims of social injustice”….
Suthrngen,
“If ‘I’ a white man walk out of a club, start fighting with people outside”
All accounts say that other people in the club started the fight, they left to avoid trouble. The undercover cops were there looking for prostitution. Again, the issue is why would someone intentionally start trouble the night before their wedding, this part is where the officer’s stories and the victims start taking on two points of view.
“cops TELL me to HALT”
The undercover policeman may not have identified himself. From my personal experience he probably did not lest he blow his cover. This is the issue, most undercovers won’t identify themselves as police, at least not initially uless their lives or the lives of a citizen are in danger, at this point that was not the case.. All Sean Bell probably saw was a man in dark clothes holding a gun telling him to stop. This is the point of contention and where all the protests are coming from. All you right to carry folks would have done the same thing as the victims, you would have said “heck no” and reached for your own piece.
“I jump in a car with a gun in the pocket”
The victims had no gun.
“and bump the officer with the chance to cause some serious bodily harm to them and any who may be around at the time and ram a car which was later advised as a undercover vehcile which had a person inside”
Again, how would you know they were police? Undercover cops don’t wear signs that say “Obey me, I’m an undercover cop”.
“Its pretty cut and dry I have placed myself in a VERY bad and dagerous spot as a person…They would have done the same to me that was done to this person”
Again, and all the “law and order first” folks seem to ignore this part, how do you explain over 50 shots fired? The victims had no gun and were not returning fire, so please, someone tell me how this makes perfect sense in your right wing, hawkish minds?
Ex-Pat
I see what your saying but I am not saying the child or the man from NY was stupid from the get go, stupid came into part when he choose to do what he wanted and disregard the officers direct order to “halt” and then jumped in a car hit the officer and another vehicle…That is when stupid kicked in…A child with a toy gun or real gun he is not stupid until he fails to comply which as you stated would lead to a bad outcome…
At gent:
Since you seem like a decent person, if I was too harsh to you, I apologize. But, here’s the thing: There is a phenomenon called “the thin blue line”, in which good cops, regardless of color, circle the wagons and come to the defense of bad cops. That’s what I mean when I cay “handlers”.
At spittoon:
DeAUnte had no “toy gun”. That was a plant. The kid wasn’t “stupid”…as are the people who believe a 12-year-old kid in this day and age would be running around with a toy gun.
“I’m not saying that there is no such thing as a bad cop, There are always a few rotten apples in a truckload but in the cases of Farrow, Chatt and the New York guys, It’s more than obvious that they were the primary cause of the situation that ended with their deaths.”
Explain to me how over 50 bullets fired is justified when there was no gun. Please. Clearly you have set in your mind that somehow these kids triggered this reaction, but I repeat for the attendess (I won’ say graduates, that’s asking too much) of Collierville and Bartlett schools, there was no gun in the car, or on any of the victims.
I wouldn’t say these were bad cops, just cops who lost their heads and lost control of the situation. Anytime a guy can reload twice with a 15 shot clip gun when there is no return fire doesn’t make him a bad cop (as in dirty, or doing illegal acts), just a guy who maybe should not be a cop. The cops lost it, plain and simple, they had a mad moment and they should pay the price for it.
“The leadership in the black community could have used these tragedies as an example to young people to cooperate when approached by law enforcement but instead they chose to paint a picture of a vast conspiracy which fuels more confrontational behavior and more potential tragedies.”
In the case of NY this stems from a long-running feud between my old neighborhood and police. Look up officer Eddie Byrne on Google on day, that’s where it took on a whole new meaning.
“As for whites being out of touch with reality, The problem with your argument is the white community sees all too much of that reality in the news everyday.”
The reality you see is carefully contructed and manipulated. Lately it’s like watching “Birth of a Nation” in newsbite form.
“Gangs, School riots and so on.”
My point exactly, you demonstrate that you have consumed the blue pill willingly, welcome to the Matrix, enjoy your steak.
“Where are the marches and protests and black leaders calling for the resignation of the Mayor and the school board? You won’t see them because those gang members and school rioters are just Poor victims of social injustice.”
You’re kidding me here, right?
Ex-Pat
If a lawful order is given by an officer (and when an undercover officer orders someone on the ground they identify themselves as being an officer) and the suspect refuses or is antagonistic, the ensuing result should surprise no one.
I agree completely with suthrngent (Post #35) above.
Ex-Pat the link I read that was posted before clicking this topic and said someone saw bell with a gun in pocket…
I have had dealings with Undercover officers and no they dont address themselves as officers right off the bat but why not just stop, take a deep breath, turn around and see what was going on…Instead he choose to do what he wanted and place himself and the general public in danger, in turn the officers took action which could have been avoided…
In the link I looked at it also stated “Undercover agents were at the club when Bell and his friends got into a confrontation with other club goers outside.”
I have said 100x and I am not going to say it again I shall quote myself so you can see it “Now on to the officer that fired 50 times, that was a little much, ok ok that was way too much just to detain one person and what are the details on the 50 shots?” I am not and will not defend the fact that this officer shot 50x…What I do know that a reasonable person would have done what was asked and not A*S*S*UME this is not a cop…You know what they say about a*S*S*uming anything it make a a*S*S out of you and me…
Bottom line he choose not to use a little sence and payed a very heavy price…I would have halted, and I know I would not have jumped in a car and bumped the offcer and then hit another vehicle wanting to flee the scene…If he did nothing wrong then why the hurry to leave???
“If a lawful order is given by an officer (and when an undercover officer orders someone on the ground they identify themselves as being an officer) and the suspect refuses or is antagonistic, the ensuing result should surprise no one.”
Victorian,
In theory yes, but this is where the protests are coming from, there is dispute that the officers identified themselves, and from experience they probably did not. Maybe they didn’t want to blow their cover, maybe they were in the heat of the moment.
I know from experience that undercovers don’t always identify themselves, sometimes not until cuffs are on.
To assume they followed the letter of law themselves gives the police a benefit of doubt and not the victims. This is where most Blacks and Whites differ, you give police the benefit of doubt in any situation. We do not. We see them as fallible, flawed individuals (in other words human) with badges and guns. Being human they are subject to the same strengths and weaknesses of any human, meaning they suffer from the same seven sins we all do, the badge doesn’t make the man, the man makes the badge.
Ex-Pat
Rude tj21 jabbered:
“At spittoon: DeAUnte had no “toy gun”. That was a plant. The kid wasn’t “stupid”…as are the people who believe a 12-year-old kid in this day and age would be running around with a toy gun.”
=====================
Good grief! Now, even though the FBI, Arkansas State Police and the State Prosecutor determined the West Memphis police acted legally (which implies no “plants”), this tj21 imbecile insists the toy gun was planted by the fuzz.
I suppose TearJerker21 just happened to be there & saw the entire episode. waaaaaaa … boo hoo
“If a lawful order is given by an officer (and when an undercover officer orders someone on the ground they identify themselves as being an officer) and the suspect refuses or is antagonistic, the ensuing result should surprise no one.”
Victorian,
In theory yes, but this is where the protests are coming from, there is dispute that the officers identified themselves, and from experience they probably did not. Maybe they didn’t want to blow their cover, maybe they were in the heat of the moment.
I know from experience that undercovers don’t always identify themselves, sometimes not until cuffs are on.
To a!ssume they followed the letter of law themselves gives the police a benefit of doubt and not the victims. This is where most Blacks and Whites differ, you give police the benefit of doubt in any situation. We do not. We see them as fallible, flawed individuals (in other words human) with badges and guns. Being human they are subject to the same strengths and weaknesses of any human, meaning they suffer from the same seven sins we all do, the badge doesn’t make the man, the man makes the badge.
Ex-Pat
The fact of the matter is, there was NO evidence the officers identified themselves as such. Since they were undercover, it is highly unlikely they identified themselves until it was too late. When I spoke of whites that are “out of touch with reality”, you are one of the people that fits that description, vicky.
Ignorant, racist Fly stammered, “Good grief! Now, even though the FBI, Arkansas State Police and the State Prosecutor determined the West Memphis police acted legally (which implies no “plants”), this tj21 imbecile insists the toy gun was planted by the fuzz.”
Fact: Prosecutions in race related crimes have dropped by 21% under the Bush administration. Have people become less racist? Or, have goverments (state and federal) become less willing to prosecute these bigots for their crimes? We think the latter is more correct than the former.
“I have had dealings with Undercover officers and no they dont address themselves as officers right off the bat but why not just stop, take a deep breath, turn around and see what was going on…Instead he choose to do what he wanted and place himself and the general public in danger, in turn the officers took action which could have been avoided”
No general public was in danger, there was no one around but the victims and the officer. I know the area, it’s a mixed residential/industrial area. This is NYC though, not Memphis, you don’t take anything at face valus UNLESS they’re in a marked car with a uniform. When I lived in Queens I always asked for ID (and a name) from undercover cops, a badge is not enough. Anyone can get a badge.
“Bottom line he choose not to use a little sence and payed a very heavy price I would have halted, and I know I would not have jumped in a car and bumped the offcer and then hit another vehicle wanting to flee the scene…If he did nothing wrong then why the hurry to leave???”
Maybe because he saw the situation going south and wanted to get out of it, maybe because he said to himself “I’m getting married tomorrow, I don’t need to be in a fight”. Maybe he just wanted to go home. When faced with fight or flight, many choose flight. Nothing criminal in that.
Ex-Pat
The expat mumbles …. Clearly you have set in your mind that somehow these kids triggered this reaction, but I repeat for the attendess (I won’ say graduates, that’s asking too much) of Collierville and Bartlett schools, there was no gun in the car, or on any of the victims.
==================
Let’s try this just ONE MORE TIME. The critical issue, which an impartial judge decided in the cops favor was … “Did the police have reason to believe their lives were in danger?”
The impartial judge, in spite if all the racial rabble rousing surrounding the trial, determined the police had reasonable cause to believe their lives were in danger.
Once the police made that determination, the number of shots fired is inconsequential. In fact, the high number of shots fired lends even more credibility to the police version of the events. BTW, the judge also determined the “eyewitness accounts” were not to be believed.
Yes, let’s try this again:
A judge ignored the evidence, said that these three murderers were justified in shooting an unarmed man, reloading in some cases, and killing him in the process. The judge, like most bigots, wasn’t interested in hearing anything that contradicted a conclusion he had already drawn, so ignored crucial evidence that implilcated these buffoons in murder. You are no criminologist, moron.
As a member of law I KNOW for a FACT that before a lawfull arrest can be made and BEFORE the cuffs are placed on anyone the officers HAVE to advise who they are and what the subject is being charged with, once the cuffs go on you are officially under arrest and in the custody of the police and not a second sooner or later…They dont have to ID themselves until a arrest is in progress…If in doubt I NEVER ask for a badge number you ALWAYS ask for the Officers IBM number, there is in fact no such thing as a badge nu number or ID you can ask for…
Undercover officers will not blow cover until the last moment just before the arrest is to be made, the reason is rights have to be taken into context and if its a felony they much be read to you with the understanding that you understood everything…In law enforcement everything is mandated by a proceedure that is governed by a policy…
Typo: a lawfull arrest *can’t* be made
disregard post 48…I cant think..AHhhhhh my head hurts..it was correct the first time..I need coffee
“As a member of law I KNOW for a FACT that before a lawfull arrest can be made and BEFORE the cuffs are placed on anyone the officers HAVE to advise who they are and what the subject is being charged with, once the cuffs go on you are officially under arrest and in the custody of the police and not a second sooner or later”
This assumes the arrestee knows and understands Miranda. Most do, some do not, or waive their rights without knowing. In a perfect world everyone get Miranda first, but in the case of an officer who fires 50 shots can you be sure? Folks asily dismiss the actions of the victims, but to me a cop who shoots 50 times looks a little fishy. I can’t give him the benefit of a doubt that he was following procedure that day.
“They dont have to ID themselves until a arrest is in progress. If in doubt I NEVER ask for a badge number you ALWAYS ask for the Officers IBM number, there is in fact no such thing as a badge nu number or ID you can ask for”
In NYC there are badge numbers and IDs.
“Undercover officers will not blow cover until the last moment just before the arrest is to be made, the reason is rights have to be taken into context and if its a felony they much be read to you with the understanding that you understood everything…In law enforcement everything is mandated by a proceedure that is governed by a policy”
This is the point of contention, it’s unclear whether those procedures were followed properly.
Ex-Pat
“As a member of law I KNOW for a FACT that before a lawfull arrest can be made and BEFORE the cuffs are placed on anyone the officers HAVE to advise who they are and what the subject is being charged with, once the cuffs go on you are officially under arrest and in the custody of the police and not a second sooner or later”
This a@s@s@umes the arrestee knows and understands Miranda. Most do, some do not, or waive their rights without knowing. In a perfect world everyone get Miranda first, but in the case of an officer who fires 50 shots can you be sure? Folks asily dismiss the actions of the victims, but to me a cop who shoots 50 times looks a little fishy. I can’t give him the benefit of a doubt that he was following procedure that day.
“They dont have to ID themselves until a arrest is in progress. If in doubt I NEVER ask for a badge number you ALWAYS ask for the Officers IBM number, there is in fact no such thing as a badge nu number or ID you can ask for”
In NYC there are badge numbers and IDs.
“Undercover officers will not blow cover until the last moment just before the arrest is to be made, the reason is rights have to be taken into context and if its a felony they much be read to you with the understanding that you understood everything…In law enforcement everything is mandated by a proceedure that is governed by a policy”
This is the point of contention, it’s unclear whether those procedures were followed properly.
Ex-Pat
Ex-Pat I do believe that the amount of ammo discharged needs to be looked into and some form of punishment issued…It should never take 2 1/2 clips worth of ammo to detain a subject under a normal situation…
In the tri-state are we have badge numbers but it onle tell you what department our officer work under the IBM IDs them as a person not a department and all officers in the US have them…Next time you wanna see a cop go whaaaaa ask for it..He/she will be blown away…Its not a number that the average person who has had no dealings with the police felid would readily know right off there head…
It is nice they have IDs in NY I wish our guys had them but other then the standard DL we have no kind of ID that tells any one person that he is a cop…
Ok my spelling is going south and I cant seem to type, so I am going to take a break and get with ya’s later…
Be good or be good at it is my motto,
Gent
“As a member of law I KNOW for a FACT that before a lawfull arrest can be made and BEFORE the cuffs are placed on anyone the officers HAVE to advise who they are and what the subject is being charged with, once the cuffs go on you are officially under arrest and in the custody of the police and not a second sooner or later”
As a crimilologist, I KNOW for a FACT that the police do often times overstretch their boundaries. Depending upon the heinousness of the crime—and the race, age and sex of the victim—the public may pressure the police to apprehend a suspect. This allows them to violate the rights of the accused. The Innocence Project has helped gain the release of over 100 people falsely accused and convicted. The cops often times bend the rules and, with judges like the one that allowed those cops to walk for what was clearly murder, they suffer no represuccions for their illegal and ungodly behavior. Are all cops bad? Absolutely not! Were the cops in this case in the wrong? Hell, yes!!
And this is supposed to concern me, HOW?
‘Crimilologist’? Is this a cross between criminologist and psychologist?
You would be correct in that Tj and to say that some cops dont overstep the power given to them by the state/federal government depending on what area they work under would be far fetched and a lie at best…We have good cops and we have bad cops all of which can be seen and found in a multitude of different ethnic and religious groups…
I still say that if a defendant/suspect refuses to obey an order given by an officer, particularly after the officer identifies him/herself as being a law enforcement officer, the consequences should surprise no one and the defendant/suspect has no one to blame but themselves for what happens. Case closed.
What is a “crimilologist”?
It’s someone who graduated from college…an accomplishment you obviously could not obtain. I understand you think you’re perfect, and have never made a mistake. More proof of your naivete. Further, you people blame blacks for everything. The economy is our fault. Salvery had to be our fault. Crime is all our fault, and now, when the police murder one of us without provocation, and bs excuse they concoct automatically absolves them, and again, it’s all our fault. That is so dumb and pathetic.
You would be correct as well victorian, any person/persons who disregards a lawfull comand issued by a officer and chooses to become combative will be subject to punishment…Everyone must take full responsibility for the actions that they choose to play out…Example pull a gun on a officer dont get mad when you get shot, drive with stolen tags or have too many unpayed tickets dont get mad when your car gets towed…
Pick up prostitutes with your child in the car dont get mad when DHS steps in and takes that child away…For every action there is a reaction…
I dont blame blacks for anything, I do ask that they be held accountable for what they do wrong just like I am held accountable for my actions…Bell made his bed and even though I dont agree with the amount of shots fired at the car killing Bell he placed himself in that spot…He had people there I am sure would not have let anything happen to him if he would have just turned around and halted like he was asked…Action and reaction
Thank you, suthrngent. I do not blame blacks for everything - what I DO blame is the mentality of people who lack a sense of personal responsibility. These people feel they can break the law with impunity and then scream ‘I’m a victim’ when the predictable happens. Very VERY tiresome….
To tj:
As a matter of fact, I DID graduate from college, but my degree is not in something so …plebeian… as criminology.
tj21 uttered: “What is a “crimilologist”?
It’s someone who graduated from college…an accomplishment you obviously could not obtain.”
================
Looks like Jerry Wright is correct about that “creative” right side of the thinker, eh???
“when someone calls it what it is—RACISM—”
Ex-Pat even said this Sean Bell case IS NOT about racism. You’re the only one that seems to be hung up in the “color” mode.
Thank you, gentlemen.
tj21,
Puhleeze stop with the whining & moaning.
I can see how frustrating is is to try and defend the indefensible, but cut us intelligent white folks a break.
The crocodile tears you hope to generate aren’t coming.
“You” are not being “picked on”. To the contraire, “you” have many more amenities than the “average” citizen does.
I’ll list them for you, if you wish.
Regarding the police … They “cat”foot around “you” for the very situation we’re talking about now. The last thing most cops (black or white) want is to deal with a black. Why?? More often, than not, justified, or not … the black will whine he’s being targeted because of his race. Forget the fact blacks commit violent crime at an overwhelming rate as compared to others.
Just quit with the whining and obey the law. You won’t have any problems.
Why don’t you do the same thing. Whereas I’ll give vicky the benefit of the doubt—that she may have a degree—you my friend, most certainly do not. Blacks are being incarcerated for violent crimes more, but that does not mean they’re committing more violent crimes. In light of the fact not all crimes are reported (and again that the suburban areas fudge their crime stats), your argument is pathetic and weak. Like I said in a previous post, you are no criminologist. You misinterpret “facts” all the time, so most if not all of what you say is not true, just the rantings of a bigoted nobody who has to feel superior to someone. That way, you are able to deal with your chronic and utter failures in life.
“….Most if not all of what you say is not true, just the rantings of a bigoted nobody who has to feel superior to someone. That way, you are able to deal with your chronic and utter failures in life.”
This is what you call the witness forfeiting his right against self-incrimination.
Herenton topic —this way please—>
This is a debate on Bell and the officers involved…Lets not get all worked up over topics on race hate that we have all talked about way too many times to bring up again…Memphis is what it is and until the views and outlooks of the people who reside in it change memphis will stay in the state it is…
Works for me, gent.
I just really enjoy debating with all you guys and gals and would hate for this to turn as ugly as I have seen in the past each of us has our views and outlooks on the topics and I would like to hear and respond to them all without things getting out of hand…
You guys and gals make my work day at the office a good one with plenty to talk about…
In other news:
Public enemy #2 John Ford reported to prison today. Are ya happy now?!?
Its about time…He needed to be in there a long time ago…
Yep … the upper crust of black memphis politics are mostly in the slammer for stealing from their constituents.
===============
BTW, GEORGE,
QUIT DELETING MY COMMENTS!
What is this? You feeling sorry for tj21 because of the intellectual whipping I’m giving him????
What’s the official head count of black memphis politicians now in the slammer???
Anyone seen the Movie “Cadence”??
I wonder if your memphis politician / inmates are doing those Soul Train dance steps???
They ought to put them all in the same joint.
I always try to remain color blind, but this was ridiculous … and, the FEDS aren’t done yet.
“Intellectual whipping”?! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Let me see…you’re a racist…you misrepresent stats…you cannot accept it when you’re proven wrong…you side with the police when they asre obviously wrong…and you’re “whipping” me? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! When did you ever become an intellectual? (Giggle)
“I just really enjoy debating with all you guys and gals and would hate for this to turn as ugly as I have seen in the past each of us has our views and outlooks on the topics and I would like to hear and respond to them all without things getting out of hand… You guys and gals make my work day at the office a good one with plenty to talk about…”
Thank you, suthrngent. There is no need for the screed and name-calling. Like I said in an earlier post, it all goes back to a sense of personal responsibility. A great number of people are totally unfamiliar with this concept.
“I think there are plenty of good people in America, but there are also plenty of bad people in America and the bad ones are the ones who seem to have all the power and be in these positions to block things that you and I need.
Because this is the situation, you and I have to preserve the right to do what is necessary to bring an end to that situation, and it doesn’t mean that I advocate violence, but at the same time I am not against using violence in self-defense. I don’t even call it violence when it’s self-defense, I call it intelligence.
Malcolm X”
“Like I said in an earlier post, it all goes back to a sense of personal responsibility. A great number of people are totally unfamiliar with this concept.”
At least you know your limitations. You do lack a sense of personal responsibility. So, why don’t you do something about it? The fact of the matter is, three murderers were let off the hook in NYC just because they were wearing badges. There was no justifiable reason for their actions, and you irresponsible people appalaud their actions.
As was said in an earlier post this morning:
“What is strange is that when a young man points a gun (Toy or otherwise) at a cop and gets killed, the first thought that comes to my mind is the kid must have been stupid; while your interpretation is that the cop is a murderer, no matter what evidence to the contrary. … The ‘leadership’ in the black community could have used these tragedies as an example to young people to cooperate when approached by law enforcement but instead they chose to paint a picture of a vast conspiracy which fuels more confrontational behavior and more potential tragedies. As for whites being out of touch with reality, the problem with your argument is the white community sees all too much of that reality in the news everyday. Gangs, School riots and so on. Where are the marches and protests and black leaders calling for the resignation of the Mayor and the school board? You won’t see them because those gang members and school rioters are just “Poor victims of social injustice”….”
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
Victorian,
There was no gun, none of the victims owned, were in possession of a gun, or anything that looked like a gun. No combs, no candy bars, nothing.
Ex-Pat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Bell
Five of the seven officers investigating the club were involved in the shooting. Detective Paul Headley fired one round, Officer Michael Carey fired three, Officer Marc Cooper fired four, Officer Gescard Isnora fired eleven, and veteran officer Michael Oliver emptied two full magazines, firing 31 shots from a 9mm handgun and pausing to reload at least once. Officer Michael Oliver fired thirty one times.
An autopsy showed Bell was struck four times in the neck and torso. Guzman, 31, was shot 19 times and Benefield, 23, who was in the back seat, was hit three times. Both men were taken to Mary Immaculate Hospital; at the time of admission Guzman was listed in critical condition and Benefield was in stable condition. Guzman and Benefield would ultimately survive the shooting. Benefield was released from the hospital on 5 December 2006, while Guzman was released on 25 January 2007. Surveillance cameras at the Port Authority’s Jamaica AirTrain station a half block away from the shooting site recorded one of the bullets fired by the officers shattering through the station’s gla*s*s window and narrowly missing a civilian and two Port Authority patrolmen who were standing on the station’s elevated platform.
Ex-Pat
So these guys’ disobedience not only cost them their own lives, but endangered the lives of others… If they had obeyed lawful orders to halt, NONE OF THIS would have happened.